Stoptechs anchors installed

[Kin Mak]

Even though stock brakes with PFC01 pads and Motul RBF fluid is doing it's job on the track they will eating through pads like nothing else. So one quick call to Roy and 3 weeks later these bad boys arrived. :D

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/IMG_0003.JPG

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/IMG_0005.JPG

I am sure most of you by now know what they look like but here are a few close up shots anyway.

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/IMG_0011.JPG

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/IMG_0012.JPG

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/rotors.jpg

Went up to my mate's place and got them installed yesterday, not many problem except we decided to remove the dust shield on the right and in the process must have snagged the wheel speed sensor. The car how has the ABS, DSC, Tyre pressure and transmission yellow light on. :(

Not a major problem, will get the sensor replaced and all should be back to normal. On the left side we decided to just cut the corner of the shield.

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/IMG_0019.JPG

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/IMG_0022.JPG

Anyway here are some final shots I just took after washing the car. :cool:

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/_RW_2185-1_-2_-3_0_1_2_3.jpg

http://www.kinmak.com/stuff/_RW_2184-1_-2_0_1_2_3_42.jpg

[phat///M3]

Looking good, how do u like the stopping power?

[ShaanK]

nice, very nice. I especially like your last pic too, it really shows how carbon black can look under different light sources.

new brakes are huge mate!

[Aaftab]

Wow the last pic looks fantastic!

[Kin Mak]

Stopping power has not increased, not that I can feel anyway. In fact the initial bit is not as good now that I am running Axis Ultimates, I was running PFC01 on the road on stock brakes.

I am sure when I put in the PFC01 on the track it will be back to what it was before. With the bigger and rotors and pads in the front I should be running a lot cooler come track time.

For the road all it does with eye candy, it does look tasty though. :cool:

[BigFas]

Looking good. Fronts only? Or rears too? they do look pretty special even behind the stock rims. Nice mod :)

[Saqib]

Wow, they're some awesome shots of the car!

[Styler]

looking good mate! :cool:

[peppernick]

I was surprised when you said you were happy with stock brakes with upgraded pads and fluid. Like you said, even if the pads lasted, the OEM discs get chewed up in no time.

But these are definitely the solution :cool:

I suggest dabbing the caliper bolts with high temp lacquer. They are prone to rust. I supposed that's the reason why Brembo paint over theirs.

[Kin Mak]

Yes BBK is definately needed when you do a good ammount of trackdays. It actually works out cheaper as you don't go through pads and rotors as quickly.

Pain on the stoptech brakes are terrible, I will try dab some high temp lacquer as suggested. It is odd, the metal hose that is at the bottom of the calliper is painted black on one side and the other is bare metal. Will give that a coat as well on the unpainted side.

Fas I only got the font, rears really don't do anything for performance.

[Sandman]

Awesome... I really wanna do this on my 330ci too !

[Raj]

Always a good addition...:cool:

[adood84]

looks :cool: , you should get the rears done too , even if they were just for looks :D

[Doc Matt]

Looks great mate. Your car looks mystic blue in that last shot with the light :)

[SpeedTrap]

Nice Kin Mak - now a trip to the Ring to justify your spend:)

[Black Sabbath]

Looking very :cool: :cool:

[uberbmw]

Very nice mate, nice pics too

[Chaos]

Fas I only got the font, rears really don't do anything for performance.
Couldn't disagree with you more, to be honest. Rear braking isn't paramount for stopping the car, but proper braking at the rear not only balances the car properly when turning into corners (for example) but also maintains a better angle of velocity when initially applying any significant braking force. (Interesting how it's called a 'balanced brake kit' too - wondering if that's a reference to some deliberate calibration or just a snappy phrase that implies something it isn't. Not that it matters specifically, just curious.)

You can over-brake a car just as easily as you can under-brake it, espcially if you just change one end of the vehicle. I'd have thought you'd have been one for trying to maintain brake balance on a car tbh. :confused:

Anyway, not getting into it, your car and your preference. :) Carbon does look good under artificial light - 2nd and 3rd from last pics look like different cars. :D

[Kin Mak]

Yes but what is also important is pad compound. Yes the bias if would be more forward than a 4 wheel BBK but the kit was developed to be used as a font kit and made accordingly. We all know that the M3 brakes might be prone to fade but you cannot say they are weak by any means, so any brake company making a BBK with a much higher level of torque will only make it hard to modulate. My assumption is that they will have a very moderate increase in torque thus not effecting brake bias by much.

We can look at the CSL, it's brake rotors are larger yet they use the same calliper and thus same size piston. This will in turn make the CSL's front brakes have a higher torque than the standard M3. So in effect the CSL's brake bias have been moved forward as well.

I assume road cars have brakes biased toward the rear, this would make sense as it will keep a lot more weight on the rear. On the track you really want to move the weight forward a bit to get the weight on the front for turn in. Again, this is an assumption so correct me if I am wrong.

Without independent tests on the BBKs(not seen any myself for the M3) and a standard M3 it is hard to come to any definite conclusion. I will see how the car feels when next on the track. I spoke to Dave Zeckhausen at length before the purchase and at no point did he dissuade me from only getting a front kit.

I await on being schooled on a few things… :D

p.s. Brembo specifically recomend installing 4 wheel kits as they are designed that way. Stoptech on the other hand actually promote their front kits to be used by themselves.

[adood84]

We can look at the CSL, it's brake rotors are larger yet they use the same calliper and thus same size piston. This will in turn make the CSL's front brakes have a higher torque than the standard M3. So in effect the CSL's brake bias have been moved forward as well.

the CSL is lighter , wouldn't that affect the way they would want to bias the brakes? thought I would ask since you guys are discussing it :D

[Kin Mak]

the CSL is lighter , wouldn't that affect the way they would want to bias the brakes? thought I would ask since you guys are discussing it :D

Didn't think about that, depends on where the weight has shifted... good spot. :D

[SpeedTrap]

Well Kin Mak, my rears are still up for sale:) J

[Kin Mak]

Well Kin Mak, my rears are still up for sale:) J

lol... PM me an offer I can't refuse. ;)

[Chaos]

It's very true that pad compound makes a difference, quite right to point that out, just that I had presumed that you'd go with and upgraded pad as well. Presumption being the mother of all cock-ups, and all that. :rolleyes:

Most E46s are set to 60F/40R from stock (non-M E36s were usually 67F/33R, to show you one difference, but it seldom drops below 60% at the front), though it varies slightly from model to model depending on everything from kerb weight to master cylinder capacity.

We were looking at some specs of a 330 with an AP caliper upgrade a while back and it ran from 61/39 to 72/28. Now, that doesn't sound like a whole lot, but that's a 20% shift in forward brake pressure and a 30% drop at the back, and that in turn means an ass-end that goes REAL light if you stamp on the brakes into a tight corner. Sure, you can adjust your driving, run a looser back end and skim the apexes at the cost of higher tyre wear, but you'll lose time sooner or later if you're on the clock.

I'm not saying that there aren't different schools of thought, but I can only air my own. :) You make an interesting point about the manufacturers. Brembo most certainly do make a BIG deal about oem bias retention, and we love them for their attention to detail on that (they'll actually custom build a set to any car, we're going through a build right now in fact), but I have no idea if Stoptech design theirs to run independant. Seems odd to make a BBK that only offers the same braking force, yet it can't retain the bias if it doesn't.

Anyway, probably getting into the detail too much. Enough people drive front-BBK upgrades without hitting every tree on a street, so it's not like it's dangerous, just that I know how particular you are and obviously you're on the limit when tracking the car so it needs to be right. As you say, drive it and see how it feels, you'll know if it feels wrong or off-balance, theory's always nice but at the end of the day there's a lot of seconds saved in driver confidence/compatibility alone so if you like it then it's worked :).

Just out of interest, you got any times to benchmark the new brakes against?

[Kin Mak]

Yes I do, 3 trackdays at the moment on the M3 but only one since the Intrax were installed. Time is one way of compaing but there are too many variables like me getting more used to the car. A data logger would have been useful but I have yet to get one.

This might not be a non issue, SpeedTrap is pedaling his goods on me as we speak. I just don't know if I have any more money in the piggy bank. :D

p.s. running PFC01s all round on the track.

[SpeedTrap]

Spotted the opportune moment, but at that price; its like giving it away to Kin Mak or they will end up as art on my bedroom wall:)

[m3tiko]

Kin..cheers for your advice previously

I've opted for Hi-Spec discs with Performance Friction pads. The discs are a whopping 380mm up front. I'm assured they can stop Robins 996 turbo so a M3 should be piss pants easy.....

[Chaos]

PF kit is really very good indeed. I've done loads of lapping with PFC01s and I properly rate them, amazing kit.

Like you say Kin, there's lots of ways to measure partially, and without a full data logger it's hard to tell properly (at the next big meet, let's hijack Neil and steal his, we'll do 6 months a year each with it - sound fair? :D). Be interesting to see how you fare against some familiar cars if you see any though. I know it's not a precise science but at least it may give you a sign of comparitive performance.

But yeah, if you end up buying Jerome's then it's just an exercise in theory, but an interesting exercise nonetheless. :)

[peppernick]

Does these finer details in braking properties actually make any difference to the majority of club-trackers, given that most of us don't even put on anything other than road tyres for trackdays.

If the tyres don't grip, or grip consistently with hot, surely there's only so much a set of brakes can contribute to stopping the car.

I would have thought as long as BBKs can help towards providing more longevity in the pads and discs, and don't degrade in performance with repeated higher load use, their purchase is justified.

[Kin Mak]

Does these finer details in braking properties actually make any difference to the majority of club-trackers, given that most of us don't even put on anything other than road tyres for trackdays.

If the tyres don't grip, or grip consistently with hot, surely there's only so much a set of brakes can contribute to stopping the car.

I would have thought as long as BBKs can help towards providing more longevity in the pads and discs, and don't degrade in performance with repeated higher load use, their purchase is justified.

Yes but it is the balance of the car that is in debate here at the moment, that would effect both track and road tyre users. On the subject of track tyres, must get my R888s on my 18" tyres, CSLs better be watching their backs. ;)

[peppernick]

Yes but it is the balance of the car that is in debate here at the moment, that would effect both track and road tyre users.
I think you'll find the balance just fine/totally acceptable with just front BBKs :)

Rear BBKs do complete the look though :D

[Kin Mak]

I think you'll find the balance just fine/totally acceptable with just front BBKs :)

Rear BBKs do complete the look though :D

Yes, Sir Blingalot. :cool:

[mystic sport]

I have just the front stoptechs on and they are extremely good. When at the ring the two biggest immediate differences were that I could brake much later and harder over the stock calipers and could also run laps back to back with no change in braking. Consistent stopping power was there through the entire lap(s).

[MEGA]

They look awesome mate I bet you are very happy :)

[madmatt m3]

just my 2 pence worth but as a human race we always believe bigger is better, therefore in our eyes BBK = better braking and the marketing depts do nothing to disuade us that this isnt the much needed item that we think it is.

[Chaos]

Does these finer details in braking properties actually make any difference to the majority of club-trackers, given that most of us don't even put on anything other than road tyres for trackdays.

If the tyres don't grip, or grip consistently with hot, surely there's only so much a set of brakes can contribute to stopping the car.

I would have thought as long as BBKs can help towards providing more longevity in the pads and discs, and don't degrade in performance with repeated higher load use, their purchase is justified.

Yes but it is the balance of the car that is in debate here at the moment, that would effect both track and road tyre users. On the subject of track tyres, must get my R888s on my 18" tyres, CSLs better be watching their backs. ;)
Nick, that's the whole point about brake bias, it's about the angle of the vehicle under braking and the posture of the vehicle when cornering.

If the tyres don't grip, or consistently get hot, then that's going to be massively worse if your brake bias is out of sync. The front tyres get too hot too quickly and the rear tyres don't get hot enough, the fronts slide around and don't turn in accurately enough while the rears slide out under initial load and can't recover to deliver the drive out of the corner. Being on road tyres is even more of an issue than track ones, as they're far less suited to 'proper' heat and are designed more for durability on the whole than heat attrition/dissipation.

The key thing is, exactly as you say, does that make any difference to the majority of track-dayers? Answer: Probably not. Emergency braking in the middle of a corner would be noticeable to anyone, but how often does that happen, it's true. The only reason for going into detail was that I know that Kin takes his tracking seriously and pushes hard when he's driving, so it seemed like more of a consideration here. I know that I can notice a difference in significant bias setups back-to-back, and there are far better drivers than me out there, so it's not hard to see how things can end up out of shape if you push the envelope.

Like we said though, it's just a discussion on theory, seemed like a good/productive time to chat about it. :)

[adood84]

stupid question , do BBKs last longer than a stock setup when both are used in identical way?

[Kin Mak]

stupid question , do BBKs last longer than a stock setup when both are used in identical way?

Yes, less heat so everything lasts longer.

[Chaos]

Yes, less heat so everything lasts longer.
Pretty much as simple as that, yup. :)

Only exception is if you're running full race spec pads etc and driving around town, in which case they'll chew through the discs way too fast. Sensibly though, upgraded brakes last way longer (I ran PFC01 with PF CC discs and after 15,000m on my vert you could hardly see a single mm missing from the pad!).

[adood84]

Pretty much as simple as that, yup. :)

Only exception is if you're running full race spec pads etc and driving around town, in which case they'll chew through the discs way too fast. Sensibly though, upgraded brakes last way longer (I ran PFC01 with PF CC discs and after 15,000m on my vert you could hardly see a single mm missing from the pad!).

would it be a worthwile upgrade for me as I usually change brake pads and sometimes discs every 15k miles lol

[madmatt m3]

ive just opted for a set of EBC redstuffs for fast road so going to see how i get on with those, as and when I destroy the discs i might opt for that setup you had on your vert Dan

[Kin Mak]

Just read this on another forum, confirms my assumptions that the brake torque of the Stoptech BBK is similar to the OEM spec. So what it means is brake bias is not overly effected with a front only kit.

The E46 M3 factory brake torque was just right so that a set of 355mm rear rotors combined with a 4-piston caliper using 28/28mm pistons (and Axxis Ultimate pads) was a very close match. Thus, the front half of the M3 4-wheel kit is the same as the front-only kit. You can install a front-only kit and then add the rear kit later, if you decide you want it for aesthetics, easier pad changes, better pad selection, or the slightly firmer pedal feel. Most of the benefit for the track, however, is acheived with the front kit.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=1000011&postcount=8

[peppernick]

Just read this on another forum, confirms my assumptions that the brake torque of the Stoptech BBK is similar to the OEM spec. So what it means is brake bias is not overly effected with a front only kit.

The E46 M3 factory brake torque was just right so that a set of 355mm rear rotors combined with a 4-piston caliper using 28/28mm pistons (and Axxis Ultimate pads) was a very close match. Thus, the front half of the M3 4-wheel kit is the same as the front-only kit. You can install a front-only kit and then add the rear kit later, if you decide you want it for aesthetics, easier pad changes, better pad selection, or the slightly firmer pedal feel. Most of the benefit for the track, however, is acheived with the front kit.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=1000011&postcount=8
Interesting info from the guru himself :)

[Chaos]

Here's a quick view of what he's saying. You can see which brakes are actual performance upgrades and which brakes are just more efficient versions of the same thing - and maybe some people may get a clearer picture of why the more expensive brakes are what they are.. :)

(Quick explanation to the confused - a factor of 2 equates to a 67/33 front/rear split, higher than 2 signifies more front etc)

Edit: You can also see the effect of the bigger CSL brakes and lighter kerb weight on that graph, Adood.

[peppernick]

Interesting info Dan :) Thanks.

[Amuro]

Interesting info Dan :) Thanks.
We are safe nick..:)

[phat///M3]

We are safe nick..:)

Not sure what you mean by that Amuro? Youre over 2, just like me. So we have more front end bias than stock.

[Mud]

I guess what he means is that he has not "wasted" his cash on Stoptechs which apparently (according to the chart) are no better than stock brakes.

[Amuro]

Not sure what you mean by that Amuro? Youre over 2, just like me. So we have more front end bias than stock.
I m a bit confuse now.. is that mean our brakes balance between front and rear is not as good??

[Amuro]

Because by the look of that chat our brakes is better ..no? Thats y i said we are safe that because we've brought the right one..:o

[Kin Mak]

I think you guys are still not getting it really. It's all well and good that Brembos clamp harder but have you ever got abs kicking in at a hard stop? That is when your brakes are overpowering your tyres, there is no use having all this torque when it causes your wheels to lock either.

More torque does not mean better as in a front only kit it is moving your bias foward too much. Stoptech keeps the brake bias right by reducing the ammount of torque in their kits.

It still does the most important thing that BBKs do which is to keep your braking components cooler and thus reduce fading.

Amuro, the chart is showing brake bias. Longer does not mean better... in this case anyway. :D

[Silver]

Iam just bloody confuse full stop lol :p

[Kin Mak]

Iam just bloody confuse full stop lol :p

If you are only installing a front BBK on a car and it's clamping force(torque) is higher than what was originally on the car the brake bias will move foward. What this means is the weight of the car will shift foward more under braking, causing more weight on the front wheels and less on the rear. There is an optimum brake bias(balance) for a car, too much foward and the rear will go light.

Hope that makes sense... :o

[mystic sport]

What the BBK offers is longevity. My OEM brakes ran out of steam when pushed consistently hard. The BBK is consistent, no matter how hard I push the car, in fact the harder I push it the better it pulls up. I have only had ABS kick in once under hard braking and that wasn't at the ring!! So, even though the stoptech brake seems to have less torque over the OEM according the chart on the last page it is consistently a far superior brake. I can't believe how hard it stops when it has been ragged for a good while - something the OEMs could never have lived up to.

[Chaos]

So, even though the stoptech brake seems to have less torque over the OEM according the chart on the last page it is consistently a far superior brake. I can't believe how hard it stops when it has been ragged for a good while - something the OEMs could never have lived up to.
True, but my PF pads displayed unbelievable longevity, and easily out-braked stock brakes from fresh and showed no fade at all, and they're £80 a pair with the option of £500 for carbon ceramic discs. You do the maths. ;)

Anyways, personal product preference aside (say that after a night in the pub :rolleyes: )...

Joe, what Kin and Steve are saying is that ideally for an E46 you want a factor of around 1.7 for the perfect factory-designed brake bias. If you're above 2 then the ideal scenario would be to upgrade the rears with matching units and re-balance the bias. Ideal = perfect, practical = real world. If you haven't noticed a problem, it's probably practical to leave it be. :)

Signs that a brake upgrade needs attention:

TC/ABS light on heavy braking - you've over-braked the vehicle for your tyre setup
Rear locking up on the brakes into a turn - you've under-braked the front / over-braked the rear
Rear going light and feeling skittish braking into a turn - you've over-braked the front / under-braked the rear

Realistically, on the road, almost all heavy braking is done in a straight line. It's not as noticeable and it's not really a problem - at worst, you lose in delivery what you've gained in performance. Mostly it's fine-tuning though. Like Nick and I were saying earlier, most people will never find the limits and never have an issue. :)

[Amuro]

No wonder i don't see any problem on mine as i have full set BBK. And my wheels and tyres choice also part of it. I've only done 2 times of track day on 4 wheels so far. Nothing compare to nick and kin i must say. But i do notice when braking hard especially on track the car have no problem at all instead help me a lot as both track day i've done is the 1st time there have no idea if is a left or right coming up, braking point what so ever. But i can still slow down and make the turn without the car out of control except once but that was on gas..:o (I hope nick won't put off and never want to sit next to me again) I just had coilover and ARB fitted not long ago that also improve braking. I am more then happy with my car now and wanted to do more track day. Learn more about it. Otherwise all the money i've spend is a total wasted..:D

[m3cslboy]

looking good Kin ! hopefully more vids to come of them being abused !!! :cool: