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bmwboi2004
05-09-2007, 05:22 PM
Here is a copy of a letter sent to BMW Scott Hall in Stanmore Middx (London area, UK)

I have since sent dozens of letters and spoken to Richard Eggleshaw and Simon Anderson at BMW UK HQ, but nothing is being done.

I will post each of my letters if anyone wants them. I am so sick of these people. In all likelyhood, I will just return the car for a full refund which is a shame as I do like the car.

BMWBoi2004@yahoo.com

Letter:

The following is a without prejudice offer of settlement of a dispute between Scott Hall BMW Stanmore and myself regarding your sale to me of a defective motor vehicle.

Unless the context clearly established otherwise, any reference made herein to “you”, “your”, “dealership”, or “BMW” shall mean BMW Scott Hall Stanmore. Any reference to the “vehicle” shall mean a BMW 330i sports saloon, License Plate [redacted], Vin No.[redacted].

I purchased a BMW 330i sports saloon on or about March 23, 2007 from the Scott Hall BMW dealership in Stanmore. [Redacted] was my salesman. I had previously viewed and driven the vehicle for the first time approximately one week before that date and had been to the dealership one other time to discuss the payment details and insurance requirements prior to completing purchase.

One of the reasons I had opted to purchase a BMW was my perception of the reliability of German engineering. Another was the supposedly superior after sales service which would be afforded to my vehicle because it came with a one year warranty.

Specifically with regards to this last point, during the sales negation process, I had been told that if my vehicle ever required warranty work during the warranty period, I would be provided a courtesy car at no charge. This, along with the other points already mentioned served as an inducement for my paying a premium price for the vehicle and signing the contract of sale on the same day as my first viewing. So impressed was I with the replacement car cover that I even asked what type of car I would be given. I was told that it would be the same as my vehicle. Having recently returned form the USA and never having purchased a vehicle in the UK before—a fact that was made known to you—no mention was ever made of any insurance cost for the use of my “no cost” “courtesy car.” The transaction was completed without any major incident. (There was an issue with Bluetooth compatibility which has since been resolved. There was also an issue of charging me for body care and upholstery work twice, but I am willing to forgo my claim as to those amounts if settlement can be reached on the defect issue.)

Because of BMW’s provision of a free courtesy car, when I obtained my automobile insurance, I declined the purchase of rental car coverage as it would clearly be unnecessary for the duration of my warranty with BMW.

After having completed the transaction and taken possession of the vehicle, I began to notice certain defects that were not immediately apparent at the time of sale. For example, the tyres were in an extremely bad condition and the MOT certificate provided to me after the sale clearly sated that these were “close to the legal limit.” Yet, no mention was made of this until after I had paid for the vehicle. Also, there is a rattling sound coming from the front air conditioning outlet which has never been fully explored. Moreover, the air bag and coolant lights have come on for no reason.

However, the greatest defect is the vehicle’s inability to start. This first presented itself on or about the evening of June 19, 2007. The vehicle was parked at an underground parking garage. It had been driven there approximately 11 hours earlier. I called BMW assist and a driver was dispatched. Looking under the bonnet, he said that a sensor was “slightly out or alignment” but to try it again. It started and I drove it home without further incident.

The next day, I drove the vehicle straight to the BMW dealership (Scott Hall, Stanmore) to have it checked. I had left it there overnight and the next day, was told that “it’s starting now” and that no “fault” could be located. Further, I was advised that the only way I could be sure that there was no underlying problem, was the leave the vehicle with you indefinitely so you could “replicate” the fault. This, of course, I was unable to do. The following morning, once again, the vehicle did not immediately start, but did on a subsequent attempt. Since that time, this defect has persisted intermittently.

Then, on the morning of Friday, July 20, 2007, the vehicle once again failed to start. This time, upon finally starting, the “coolant” light was illuminated. So, I once again drove directly to your dealership, only by the time I arrived, the coolant indicator was no longer illuminated. However, I proceeded to tell the service advisor of the persistent defect concerning the non-starting of the vehicle. I also mentioned the coolant indicator problem. He stated that it was unlikely that the two were related but that in any event, the engine was “too hot” to add any water at this time. As to the failure to start defect, I was once again told to leave the vehicle with the dealership “for as long as it takes to find and fix the fault.” Clearly, this was no solution, so I drove to work.

After presenting no signs of the defect over the weekend, the vehicle again failed to start the morning of Monday, July 23, 2007. On this occasion, I had meetings all day so was unable to drive to the dealership. That said, I did call the dealership and the BMW assist number. The lady at the dealership was quite hostile while, because of extensive hold times (due to flooding related calls), I was unable to complete the Assists phone call. I managed to make all my appointments that day, and upon returning home that evening, the vehicle having sat undriven for over 24 hours, tried to start the vehicle. Miraculously, it started first time.

I have since come to the conclusion that BMW have (whether knowingly or not) sold me a defective vehicle. The reason for the lengthy letter is that I wish to have my defective vehicle repaired. So far, I have not been able to convince BMW that my vehicle is defective. This is because you have required me to deposit my vehicle with your for an indefinite period of time. This, I am unable to do.

Therefore, I propose the following compromise. I will make an arrangement to deposit my vehicle with your dealership (or a dealership of your choice) and you will furnish me with a like model BMW replacement car (just like was agreed at the time of sale), and I will place the replacement car under my insurance policy, but that the cost of this will be reimbursed by your dealership. Without such an arrangement, the provision of a courtesy car is illusory on your part. This is even more so when if I had been fully informed of the “hidden” cost of the courtesy car, I would have procured insurance that would have covered the courtesy car at no additional charge.

I have a duty to mitigate my loss in that matter and this is a genuine attempt to resolve the dispute we have in the most cost effective manner. The cost to you of this will be less than £100 (more likely £50). I get my vehicle repaired and all parties ought to be quite satisfied. In light of the alternative (including, but not limited to, ultimately returning the vehicle and BMW refunding me the purchase price plus costs), this is a very fair and sensible offer.

You have 7 days from the date at the top of this letter to advise how you wish to proceed.

I look forward to receiving your response.

BigFas
05-09-2007, 05:25 PM
too long to be bothered to read.

summarise into 5 bullet points or less

scorcher
05-09-2007, 05:29 PM
Good grief - you haven't had a good experience with them.

Great letter, and hope you get a result.

AFAIK the dealership can waive the insurance fee. Cooper Croydon did just that for me on a couple of occasions.

jordan3054
05-09-2007, 05:31 PM
Just read through mre or less all of that

I hope you get a result too. I'd just go in and retun the car you know and try and get a full refund. Then just get another one from a different dealership

bmwboi2004
05-09-2007, 05:40 PM
Well, since that time, I have written to Jim O'Donnell, the head of BMW UK, tried to get him or his PA on the phone, but to no avail. I have spoken to both Simon Anderson and Richard Eggleshaw at BMW in Bracknell, sent numerous faxes and letters to each of them and the dealership.

They did agree to give me a loan car (a crappy 1 series) and reimburse the cost (approximately £17). In fact, the car is at the dealership right now, but basically, they aren't going to fix it.

Here's a letter I am composing to Jim O'Donnell. It gives the jist of it.

Letter:

Over the past few months, I have repeatedly been forced to endure the inconvenience of my vehicle not starting and having to constantly drive to the dealership only to be told there’s no fault, when clearly, there is a fault.

After a two month battle, I thought that I had finally persuaded Scott Hall to honour its contractual obligations under the sale agreement. However, it appears that I would have been better off spending that time searching for another vehicle.

This afternoon, I received a telephone call from Dan McCarthy at Scott Hall stating that although they had not corrected the problem with the non-starting of the vehicle, I must nevertheless retrieve my vehicle by Friday, September 7, 2007, because they need the loan car they’ve provided me with for “other customers.”

I must say, this came as somewhat of a shock because on July 20, 2007, when the vehicle yet again failed to start, I was seen by Mr. McCarthy at Scott Hall. In fact, it was Mr. McCarthy who noticed that there “was indeed a fault” because it did fault when he tried to start it on that day. Furthermore, Mr. McCarthy sated that it could be a number of causes including an ignition problem, but that it would necessitate taking apart the front of the vehicle to diagnose. At which point, Mr. McCarthy stated that the only way to identify and cure the defect would be to leave the vehicle with the dealership “for as long as it takes to find and fix the fault.” It is precisely this that I have now done, yet Scott Hall’s attitude has suddenly changed.

It should also be noted that Mr. McCarthy informed me that the dealership has been “test-driving” my vehicle “every two to three hours” yet handling has never been the problem; starting is! If the vehicle starts once, it will start again within a short space of time. What Scott Hall should have done is leave the vehicle to go “cold” and then attempt to duplicate the fault. It’s no use Scott Hall stating that they are “unable to duplicate the fault” when they fail to test the vehicle under the very conditions giving rise to the fault in the first place! Naturally, under these circumstances, the absence of a fault seems a virtual certainty.

Still, I think I have had enough of this game playing. Because Scott Hall is clearly more concerned about its loan car, it can have it back on Friday, as requested. However, because they have by their own admission not repaired my defective vehicle, the very next time the vehicle fails to start, I will return it to the dealership for a full refund of the purchase price. Moreover, if Scott Hall fails to refund me my purchase price, I will file suit against them and recover all of my costs, including, but not limited to attorney’s fees.

Finally, on a personal note, I am disappointed that throughout this incident, you have refused to speak with me personally, or even acknowledge the chronic problems I have experience at the hand of the Company which you are paid to represent. I think that inaction on your part speaks volumes about BMW’s attitude towards its customers.

---End---


Is there anything I should add?

BMWBoi2004@yahoo.com

Stock323iSaloon
05-09-2007, 06:11 PM
as u have a conflicting opinion on the existence of a fault, it could turn out to be a drawn out battle but the relevant legal stuff can be found here

Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/Ukpga_19940035_en_1.htm

Honest John's column has good real cases...
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=43

bet this has put you off BMWs...good luck

gie0320
05-09-2007, 06:14 PM
Dont give up ,file that suit against the the dealership, get your money back and buy another!You are the customer and you have rights full stop!

bmwboi2004
05-09-2007, 06:19 PM
So basically, because I bought the car on March 23, 2007, those thieves at Scott Hall have been trying to stall me so that it gets past 6 months and then I have to prove the car was defective (whereas this is presumed if taken back within 6 months).

Well, I'm taking it back immediately and demanding a refund!

Also, check this out. Seems a lot of people have had problems with Scott Hall!

http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/garages_seng.html

And here's what Jim O'Donnell looks like! Grrr!

http://www.just-auto.com/articleimagelist.aspx?ID=90752

BMWBoi2004@yahoo.com

Stock323iSaloon
05-09-2007, 06:29 PM
remember to give them 3 attempts to fix the issue - probably gives more weight to your argument...but i have heard of cases in Honest John's coloumn where the court decided the claim was 'too minor' to be refusing the car (e.g. creaking noise) - but this can be v subjective especially on an intermittent fault

Chaos
05-09-2007, 08:16 PM
I've removed the other duplicate posts that you decided to put up, one post is sufficient.

With regard to the matter in hand, I can't believe that you've waited 5 months to get a solicitor on this. Do not wait for the car to go wrong again, tell them they can come and collect the courtesy car on the day they stated, inform them that you are requesting a refund under the SSG Act 1994 immediately and go and see a solicitor so that when they ignore you (and they almost certainly will) you can have a solicitor's letter on their doormat to follow it up.

Also get the Office of Fair Trading on the case, and let BMW know that you have too. http://www.oft.gov.uk/

f13ldy
06-09-2007, 06:56 AM
Scotthall are cnuts...

Caused me all kinds of grief with my M3.

1 week turned into 2 weeks into 3 weeks etc... All because they were changing the wheels under warranty. Their best excuse came when they said they don't make the E46 M3 wheels any more because of the E92 M3 release.

This was in May.

mikem
06-09-2007, 07:57 AM
Scotthall are cnuts...

Caused me all kinds of grief with my M3.

1 week turned into 2 weeks into 3 weeks etc... All because they were changing the wheels under warranty. Their best excuse came when they said they don't make the E46 M3 wheels any more because of the E92 M3 release.

This was in May.


Tyhe wheels were on a 6-8 week back order a couple of weeks ago.

f13ldy
06-09-2007, 08:52 AM
They could've told me that then.

Instead of a lazy, no they don't do them no more.

Plus it was their idea to have them re-furbed and a turn around of 1 week... Not 3 weeks, only in the 2nd week was it mentioned that it might be quicker to get new ones.

bmwboi2004
06-09-2007, 05:41 PM
This is what ended up happening. I know I'm posting a lot, but I want people to read this and know what kind of scam artists these people are.

If every person who read my emails passed them on to just one person, and so on, I'm sure Scotthall would change their tune.


Via Facsimile to: (020) 8951 5225
Mr. Gordon Kimberley
Scotthall BMW
Woodfield House
Honeypot Lane
Stanmore
Middlesex
HA7 1JS



September 6, 2007


Re: BMW 330i sports sedan (LN04 ZSR)
Defective Product

Dear Mr. Kimberley,

Thank you for your telephone call this morning. I welcomed the opportunity to discuss the problems I have been having with the defective vehicle sold to me by BMW Scott Hall Stanmore. I had hoped that our conversation would have proved more fruitful, but this was not the case. In hindsight, in light of the apparent lack of regard for customer service exhibited by BMW generally, this was not totally unexpected.

As has been adequately documented in my numerous letters to your dealership over the past few months, since purchasing my vehicle, I have repeatedly been forced to endure the inconvenience of my vehicle not starting and having to constantly drive to the dealership only to be told there’s no fault, when clearly, there is a fault.

After a two month battle, I thought that I had finally persuaded Scott Hall Stanmore to honour its contractual obligations under the sale agreement. However, it appears that I would have been better off spending that time searching for another vehicle.

Yesterday afternoon, I received a telephone call from Dan McCarthy at Scott Hall stating that although they had not corrected the problem with the non-starting of the vehicle, I must nevertheless retrieve my vehicle by Friday, September 7, 2007, because they need the loan car they’ve provided me with for “other customers.”

I must say, this came as somewhat of a shock because on July 20, 2007, when the vehicle yet again failed to start, I was seen by Mr. McCarthy at Scott Hall. In fact, it was Mr. McCarthy who noticed that there “was indeed a fault” because it did fault when he tried to start it on that day. Furthermore, Mr. McCarthy sated that it could be a number of causes including an ignition problem, but that it would necessitate taking apart the front of the vehicle to diagnose. At which point, Mr. McCarthy stated that the only way to identify and cure the defect would be to leave the vehicle with the dealership “for as long as it takes to find and fix the fault.” It is precisely this that I have now done, yet Scott Hall’s attitude has suddenly changed.

It should also be noted that Mr. McCarthy informed me that the dealership has been “test-driving” my vehicle “every two to three hours” yet handling has never been the problem; starting is! If the vehicle starts once, it will start again within a short space of time. What Scott Hall should have done is leave the vehicle to go “cold” and then attempt to duplicate the fault. It’s no use Scott Hall stating that they are “unable to duplicate the fault” when they fail to test the vehicle under the very conditions giving rise to the fault in the first place! Naturally, under these circumstances, the absence of a fault seems a virtual certainty.

However, when I asked you this morning to do the decent thing and refund me my money, you stated that I would have to sue you. Because, by your own admission, your dealership has failed to repair my defective vehicle, I have no choice but to reject the vehicle and demand a full refund. Moreover, if Scott Hall fails to refund me my purchase price, I will file suit against them and recover all of my costs, including, but not limited to attorney’s fees. I will also be filing formal complaints against your dealership with BMW, the DTI and any other entity that would be interested in the circumstances surrounding the “repair” of my vehicle.

Finally, on a personal note, I am disappointed that throughout this incident, you have, until this morning, not bothered to speak with me personally, or even acknowledge the chronic problems I have experienced at the hand of the dealership which you are paid to represent. I think that inaction on your part speaks volumes about your company’s attitude towards its customers. I also note that I have not received a single letter from any of your staff with the exception of a generic acknowledgement to my initial July 24, 2007 letter. I had hoped that as a businessman, you would recognize the value of goodwill on one’s business. Regrettably, I have not seen anything from Scotthall Stanmore that leads me to believe this is true.


---End Letter---

In response, a few hours later, Mr. Kimberley called me and again asked for the loan car back.

I told him that I would not return it until they reparid my vehicle. Her stated that he would report the car to the police as stolen.

Developing . . .

mikem
06-09-2007, 05:48 PM
I really do fell for you but if they want they`re car back you have to give it to them or you`ll fall foul of the law. (Trust me I`ve been there with a brand new Alfa I bought. Luckilly for me the police had enough common sense to telephone and politley ask me to return the car instead of coming to arrest me :o )

Chaos
06-09-2007, 09:16 PM
In response, a few hours later, Mr. Kimberley called me and again asked for the loan car back.

I told him that I would not return it until they reparid my vehicle. Her stated that he would report the car to the police as stolen.

Developing . . .
It's hardly developing is it, it's very clearly going to go one way: Return it or be arrested. It's their vehicle, they have terminated the benefit of the loan to you (irrespective of the reason for it's inception), you are legally bound to return the car to it's legal keeper.

Moreover, if you proceed to a legal action (which you absolutely should, the cocky fucktards that BMW are these days), then you may reach a point in the proceedings where things aren't black-and-white and behaviour/intent with regard to reaching a mutually satisfactory solution becomes an issue. You illegally holding their property to ransom will do you no favours at all with the court - indeed, your returning it would show a respect for the law which is exactly what you will be relying upon to win your case.

On a final note, you tell them you want a refund and then when they later ask for the car back again you tell them that you want your car repaired. IF I were in your position I would make my mind up and stick to it; you're doing yourself no favours by dancing back and forth about what you want them to do, in fact you're almost encouraging them to procrastinate as much as possible with regards to reaching a solution.

Styler
07-09-2007, 06:37 AM
I feel for you BMWboi. I still need to write a letter to BMW customer services regarding my problems with my E46 325ci.

I had a cracked cylinder head on it after just covering 26,000 miles. I took a day off work and spent it at the dealers arguing my case that i didn't do anything to cause it to crack and spoke to customer services till i was blue in the face. But I STILL ENDED UP COUGHING UP £3500 TO GET A NEW ONE FITTED as the car was out of warranty and that someone had apparantly welded the crack previously which they didn't know about!

I bought it used, with only 6,000 miles on it from Cooper BMW Croydon. Both customer BMW services and the dealer told me that if the car was still in warranty then it would have been void as someone had welded the head. But they had no way of knowing that it wasn't me. So they basically sold me a duff used car, which was not fit for purpose of use. They also told me they don't check cylinder heads on their approved car check, so they wouldn't have picked up the problem if it was there in the first place.

I'm looking to take legal action against them, need to get my £3500 back! I've kept hold of the old head as evidence.

Chaos
07-09-2007, 07:36 AM
Are you MENTAL?! £3500?!?! Who the hell pays that for a new cylinder head???? :confused: Or did you do it at the same dealer and let them rip you off twice... :eek:

Irrespective of that, your hope possibly lies in proving the age of the weld - BMW's knowledge or lack thereof of the botch is not your problem and if you can prove that you didn't do it then they are liable to make it good. I think you'll be very hard pushed to do it, probably need a very specific type of solicitor and even then you'll be dealing with the franchise itself rather than BMW as it comes down to a used car which is a fairly uninvolving process with regard to BMW HQ. Good luck if you go for it though, is a pretty shitty thing to have had happen to you so hopefully justice will prevail.

Styler
07-09-2007, 08:28 AM
Are you MENTAL?! £3500?!?! Who the hell pays that for a new cylinder head???? :confused: Or did you do it at the same dealer and let them rip you off twice... :eek:

Irrespective of that, your hope possibly lies in proving the age of the weld - BMW's knowledge or lack thereof of the botch is not your problem and if you can prove that you didn't do it then they are liable to make it good. I think you'll be very hard pushed to do it, probably need a very specific type of solicitor and even then you'll be dealing with the franchise itself rather than BMW as it comes down to a used car which is a fairly uninvolving process with regard to BMW HQ. Good luck if you go for it though, is a pretty shitty thing to have had happen to you so hopefully justice will prevail.

lol, I don't know if i'm MENTAL or not, but i did consider it when I actually paid for it!

The cylinder head cost about £1000, for a new one. But rest of the cost is labour and small few parts, then of course VAT! was about £3200 all together, but i had to pay inspection fees etc. I got it done at AMC (south London), BMW were quoting me £4000+. They are a very good garage. family been taking there BMs there for years. In wanted it done properly.

It was the biggest pain to try and get it sorted, especially as i had just bought the M3 and was looking to sell the 325. Hopefully I can come to some arrangement with BMW.