Looking at a E36 M3...

[DriftR]

...but to evo or not to evo???
i`m looking to get an e36 M3 in a month or so, but just wanted opinions on wether the M3 evo was worth the extra money (both on buying and insuring)???
thanks guys. :D

[M_Hunter]

i would go for the evo, more power i think any way,
plus its a newer version of the M

Martyn

[DriftR]

thanks, i know it has about 30more bhp but that alone doesnt make it worth the money, unless some people who have driven them can tell me that it puts the power down better or handles better. as far as i know there are no real cosmetic differences?
thanks

[M_Hunter]

its the same as the E36 really, the newer the car the slight changes the made in the engines and the aesthetics which make them the oh so much better than there previous older brothers.

As i understand the newer evo 3.2 would be easier to modify for yourself and parts are alot more widely available. and you never know that 30 or so more BHP could make the world of difference in feel and handling. Just go and test drive some and find out the difference for yourself

I was always scared of driving a BMW when i got to the age. I always loved them though and wanted one with all my heart. I drove my dads and never really looked back. Now i am on my 2nd BMW and definately unless something really fires up the passion for a car inside me as much as a BMW does wont be going to any other marque. (unless its a lambo;) )

Martyn

[mystic sport]

The evo never puts down its proposed 321bhp. In reality most never break 310bhp and the majority make around 300bhp now. The pre evo 3.0 pretty much reliably put down its stated bhp (289bhp?). From what I have read, on the road there isn't much difference between the two. The evo is the more fragile unit due to its VANOS. Sometimes the vanos bolts can let go. It is also advisable to change the vanos oil filter every six months or so. I don't have that much more to add as I don't know an awful lot about the E36 M3.

[M_Hunter]

The evo never puts down its proposed 321bhp. In reality most never break 310bhp and the majority make around 300bhp now. The pre evo 3.0 pretty much reliably put down its stated bhp (289bhp?). From what I have read, on the road there isn't much difference between the two. The evo is the more fragile unit due to its VANOS. Sometimes the vanos bolts can let go. It is also advisable to change the vanos oil filter every six months or so. I don't have that much more to add as I don't know an awful lot about the E36 M3.

mmm trusty vanos :D i have heard a few nightmares with american vanos units but never the euro ones.

Martyn

[Jazz]

I would go for for the non-evo due to these reasons:-

1) It does not suffer from the double vanos problems as with the evos (expensive to fix!!)

2) I believe that the evos never pushed there quoted bhp figures of 321 bhp and performance wise are not that much faster than the non evo's which actully do make their figures of 286 bhp

3)Cheaper to buy

You dont get the digital climate control display or a six speed with the non-evos but never the less I think it is a better buy due to the above.

Cheers

Jazz

[arkenphel]

I think the Non evo version had a bit more torqur lower down as well, making it a teeny bit more accessible i.e. not as frenetic.

[DriftR]

thanks for all the comments, i didnt know about the vanos so thats something to think about, and i`d forgotten about the 6speed box, to me that is quite appealing, dont know why really, probably adds nothing to the performance!
thats what this car will be all about, going fast, not just big power figures but actually being able to use the power and turn when i get to a corner too!
by the sounds of it the non-evo has the more useful power?

as for test driving, i`m 21 and when i go to a garage and start looking at an m3 the salesmen usually laugh or just walk away!

also the non-evo would be handy on the insurance front, as i`ve been quoted £2680 for M3 and £3880 for evo!!

[Chaos]

Never ceases to amaze me how some people post so much and yet say so little... :rolleyes:

M3 v M3Evo. Not as tough a call as you'd think, actually. Here's the main differences:

- The bore and stroke was upped with the Evo, which is why it got the 35hp and 32lb/ft hike from the 3 litre block. No replacement for displacement, etc.
- VANOS unit added to inlet and exhaust, lightweight pistons and conrods. Better performance, but more to go wrong.
- 6 speed gearbox instead of a 5. Only you will know which you prefer, but if you're tracking it then I'd suggest that the answer should be '6'. For drifting, the longer gears of the 5 may be better for protracted cornering. For the road, it's your call, but personally I like to have a power band that I can stay in, and that means more gears.
- Completely re-vamped suspension and geometry, stiffening everything up and taking out a load of understeer in the process.
- Slightly quicker steering rack fitted.
- Floating discs from the M5 fitted (the E34, not the E39)
- Less weight. About 25 kilos of it, in fact, partly from engine component upgrades and partly from body-part changes.
- Black grilles, clear indis, slightly different headlights etc fitted as standard.
Last, and most certainly not least...
- LSD as standard. Yes, those three letters that will mean everything to you drifty boys. Not standard in the pre-Evos. LSD = good. We like LSD. ;)

That's a rough summary. If you're going to drive it hard, get the Evo. No question. The insurance companies know this though, hence the numbers they gave you. Your call dude.

As for things to look out for:

Get paperwork. All of it. Check it out. No paperwork history = walk away and do not look back. One missed service or one botched DIY job can come VERY expensive to your wallet. Don't risk it or you'll be paying large percentages of the purchase price just to keep it on the road. I have made this mistake myself, and I learnt the hard way. Don't do it.

When you arrange to go see the car, tell them explicitly not to start it or warm it up before you get there. Start it up from cold. If it sounds lumpy or doesn't idle smoothly, put your tin hat on. Bent valves, dodgy VANOS units, knackered coil, ECU - all possibles and known faults. Some can be modded if they go wrong, some can't. All of them will be expensive.

Check the engine and, if possible, look at where the car has been standing (you'll need to scout the place out first to do this if someone's smart to the problem). Any oil leaks that are anything other than the odd little moisture will be a major job. The E36 M3 unit is not known for it's simple gasket-swapping. Head gasket = engine out job. Walk away if there's mayonnaise in the radiator reservoir.

Check under the car for corrosion/damage on the underside of the manifold. That's another classic and manifolds aren't cheap. Check tyre wear for signs of crapped-out suspension, especially on the hard ride of the Evo. Bushes and wishbones are another common problem, they go quite often, and the car handles like a sack of arses if they do. Central locking is a vulnerable area, so check that, headlight washers corrode and leak so check those, sunroof runners wear out and jam so check the tilt/slide several times to make sure it's smooth.

Other than that it's the usual with E36s like checking for high biting point on the clutch, grinding 1st gear selection, and sanity checking your head if you find an SMG1 model and actually want to buy it. :p

They're fantastic cars, I was only talking to Black Sabbath this morning and saying I really really miss my last one. Take your time to find a good one, get it really well checked out, and then you should be able to relax and enjoy one of the most fun BMWs ever built. :)

[DriftR]

:eek: wow.
thats what i call a detailed answer!
thanks very much chaos, i think the 6speed and LSD (yes we Definately like them:D ) may just swing it, plus what you said about the better suspension set-up etc. i really want one now!
now to draw up a check-list from all the points you made for viewing a car and start looking!
thanks again to all of you for all the help, much appreciated

[Chaos]

That's where my money would go unless I got a serious bargain on a non-Evo. Jazz's points a few posts earlier are valid, but there are some things which I prioritise over those and you've listed 2 of them right there.

If you can take a suspension expert along with you, or if you can get an inspection done, then I'd recommend it. The Evo suspension does take a battering from the shocks and springs all the way to the wishbones and bushes, and if you get a setup that's in good nick and been looked after then it really will be a totally different car to one that's knackered.

[DriftR]

ok so i thought the SMG was like a semi-automatic, but from seeing a few pics of cars with smg, it doesnt look like it, can anyone clarify for me please!?

[Chaos]

The SMG1 in the Evo is a similar setup to the E46 SMG2, except it's not adjustable (S1, S6, etc) and it can be real slow to change at times. I would venture to say that it's not for a "driver's driver" but some may prefer it, I suppose you could get used to it, but I'd have thought you would have been all over a stick shift TBH.

[mystic sport]

One thing I would say about the E36 M3 smg is that it is pretty unpleasant to use. I have only been out in one smg equipped car and the changes were jerky and as Dan says, pretty slow. Much better to go traditional manual on the e36. And yes, Dan mentioned another important point, the LSD, no M should be without one :p .

[west328sport]

I would say 3.2 evo all day long
newer
electronic climate control rather than manual
six speed
i would go for a manual
pick a late one S reg onwards your get lots of extras like electric and heated seats etc . And reasonable mileage
hope this helps

[Black Sabbath]

I must admit Dan has hit the nail on the head with his points.Traceys had a clutch,2 rear shocks and top mounts straight off.The down pipes suffer from cracks around the flexy and are mega money,however we took it to Topgear in Hayes and they did a first class repair and and new s/steel back box at the same time for less than the price of a downpipe :cool: Other than that Tracey wont be tracking it so it gets used as a local run about.Because I'm able to get parts for a reasonable price maintenance shouldn't be an issue to us,but unless you have contacts I can see how they would become a money pit.It will be going on the dyno soon so power wise I'll let you know.Finally it is a fantastic car to drive,slightly less refined than an e46 M3,but still awesome when you plant your foot on the floor and it still looks the dogs danglies imho

[Miss Naughty]

Go on buy the M3 evo you will have lots of fun :D :D

[Chaos]

Just noticed this morning as I was clearing up a stack of magazines that BMWCar ran an E36M3 guide in the April 07 edition. I'm guessing that the May one will be on the shelves now, but you may get lucky and find one if you hurry out and it's a rural shop or something, or someone may be able to scan in a copy for you.

[Kin Mak]

There was also a write up in CAR I think aboutthe M3s along with their write up about the new M3 a few months ago. Yes the EVO is better but then again it should be with the price difference.

If cost is a factor the non EVOs are still fun. Don't think most drivers will really notice the EVO difference unless on a track. Then again price difference now is very slight if you are thinking about modding it.

Also unless the suspension has been changed since it's conception I would suggest changing it as the difference will be night and day between new shocks.

To sum it up a bad EVO even with all it's enhancements won't be better than a good standard M3 so don't let the EVO tag and a cheap price sway you.

[Scholesy]

Dont know if it is the same in the M3's but the rest are also known for coroded brakes pipes which are a right pain in the arse to change (exhaust off and drop petrol tank to do it properly so check these)

[CA Automotive UK]

I owned an Evo and a 3.0 litre for some years ( still have the evo, having recently removed the turbo and put it back to standard). I love the e36 M3s in both guises :)

here is my 10 pence, most already confirmed by the other members :

1.main engine changes was that the evo had a longer stroke ( the bores are actually the same) to give the extra displacement.The head had 1mm larger inlet valves. Evo had twin vanos.
2. The evo was not that much more powerful than the 3 litre, they never reached 321 bhp. Andyes i belive the 3.0 litre had a little more low down torque. In a head to head drag race there is VERY little between the two cars.
3. 3.0 litre vanos seems more reliable.
4. weak piint on both cars are the con rods and bolts, watch out for these if you start tuning and / or running high revs
5. exhaust manifolds on the evo are prone to splitting on the flexi pipe
6. evo had some nicer minor styling and interior changes
7. evo has LSD...well worth having as Dan said
8. evo had better crank breathing system.

personally I find it had to choose between the two, good luck with your deliberations :)

[DriftR]

again, thanks to everyone, this has gotta be the most helpful forum i`ve ever been on!:D



Just noticed this morning as I was clearing up a stack of magazines that BMWCar ran an E36M3 guide in the April 07 edition. I'm guessing that the May one will be on the shelves now, but you may get lucky and find one if you hurry out and it's a rural shop or something, or someone may be able to scan in a copy for you.
I did have a look around but couldnt find the april one anywhere :(

[madmatt m3]

presonally I had a 3.0 M and as much as i enjoyed it i'd never have another one. The standard handling never gave me much confidence and it used to scare the sh*t out of my in the rain!!

maybe i had a bit of a dog of one but i just never felt truely comfortable with it. drive a few tho and see how you get on.

good luck anyway

[Scholesy]

If you are still wanting one, i saw this one at a meet yesterday and it is getting sold. I can always get details for you?

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/Scholesy1504/Thetford%20meet/P1010001.jpg

[Chaos]

Get details anyway Scholesy, someone may be interested, maybe even me. ;)

And Mr Royston! Are you telling me then that they didn't lengthen the stroke to 91.0mm (from 85.8mm) and increase the bore to 86.4mm (from 86.0mm)? Hmmm? Are you? :p (And rescue that Evo from Richard's workshop, it deserves a run out, a nice wax and some photos :cool:)

[DriftR]

thanks, i would love it but not in a position to buy yet, still trying to get my old car back to standard before i can sell it!


presonally I had a 3.0 M and as much as i enjoyed it i'd never have another one. The standard handling never gave me much confidence and it used to scare the sh*t out of my in the rain!!

maybe i had a bit of a dog of one but i just never felt truely comfortable with it. drive a few tho and see how you get on.

good luck anyway

maybe another reason to get the evo with its revised suspension? i do understand what you mean, but either way i like driving on the edge and theres nothing wrong with a bit of sideways!

[madmatt m3]

to be fair it was more backwards than it was sideways!! haha

[DriftR]

:eek: thats not so good! not being funny, but was that more heavy foot syndrome or just unpredictable handling? :rolleyes:

[ADAMOD]

I've nearly got my evo back together now and i'd like to up the power.The problem is what to do and where to go. Turbo and supercharger kits are all for left hand drive cars and then you have the variance in ecu's ( euro, american ) Anybody help?

[madmatt m3]

:eek: thats not so good! not being funny, but was that more heavy foot syndrome or just unpredictable handling? :rolleyes:
Im the first to admit that ive got a heavy right foot when Im out in a driving mood but the e36 used to bite me at times when I wasnt killing it, I ended up parked in the middle of a roundabout at 7.45am one morning int he rain cos the back just kicked out and being half asleep i couldnt react quick enough and it spun on me. you have to respect the 3.0 all the time cos without traction control the second you stop respecting it it will bite you and just kick the tail out.

It might just have been the one I had but ive found the e46 a much more pleasant drive and a lot easier to drive nearer the limit without having to be a driving god :D :p

[CA Automotive UK]

Get details anyway Scholesy, someone may be interested, maybe even me. ;)

And Mr Royston! Are you telling me then that they didn't lengthen the stroke to 91.0mm (from 85.8mm) and increase the bore to 86.4mm (from 86.0mm)? Hmmm? Are you? :p (And rescue that Evo from Richard's workshop, it deserves a run out, a nice wax and some photos :cool:)

Daniel San you are 100% correct and I am wrong, evo did indeed have increased bore as well as stroke :o.... dont you hate it when that happens ? :D

[Chaos]

LOL it's only 0.4mm, what's that between friends? OK, not going there... :o I still say get that car out and give it some air, poor little thing!

[CA Automotive UK]

btw....how DO you know my E36 m3 is still in the workshop anyway, hmmmm???

BTW i have sold the turbo kit off it now and so it will be resurrected soon as a NA track toy :)))

[Chaos]

Last time I was there you'd have needed a JCB to unearth it from under the dust, so I figure it's a safe bet. :p And I'm jealous cos that's exactly what I'm craving for as a track toy these days... :o

[Scholesy]

Get details anyway Scholesy, someone may be interested, maybe even me. ;)



Got details of this now if anyone wants them

[jmcg]

Apologies for the thread trawling, but i've just joined up and spotted this thread.
I've been trawling autotrader and pistonheads religiously for the past couple of months looking for an e36 m3 evo,
Most evo's advertised with low mileages seem to be smg's.
Should i stay well clear as i hear nothing but bad reports?
Although this one has caught my eye
http://pistonheads.com/sales/173393.htm
Worth 12k though?
Any advise would be much appreciated
Many thanks
Jonathan

[Chaos]

Only you can say what it's worth to you, but I'd say he's got close to no chance of any replies to that asking for those numbers with no offers. Even at that mileage he's got little going for it as it's the most common colour combination (estoril/grey) that the Evo was sold with and the MoT is up so you have no idea if you're going to be faced with an early bill right at the start of ownership. That said, if someone's desperate, he may get a sniff I suppose. Wouldn't fancy his luck, mind.

The SMG isn't really really horrible, but SMG generally is a feature which takes a little getting used to and the SMG1 boxes need you to do that and then need you to be tolerant of the lazy way they change gear once you have. I'm a stick shift kinda guy anyway, so I'd never buy one - the SMG fans may want to give one a go I guess, but personally I'd recommend staying manual until you move to an E46 and then having a try with it.

http://pistonheads.com/sales/175415.htm is a better bet.

[DriftR]

hi there, compared to most i`ve seen that is pretty sweet. i`ll flip ya for it lol. it is quite pricey compared to most i`ve seen but also less than half the mileage. i would prob say 10k would be my limit for it but maybe i`m just tight!
thats my 2pence. i`ll leave the expert opinions to the experts!!

[jmcg]

chaos & driftr many thanks for your replies

maybe i'm cynical but im intent on looking on mainland uk for one as everything over here in northern ireland has been diffed stupid.
i've budgeted 10k ish max for the car and insurance is coming in at the 1500 mark.
On another note who would you recommend looking at a car for you, we have a family membership with the rac would they give a car a thorough inspection, flights aren't dear i know but theres only so many times you can scoot across the irish sea car hunting lol.

[Chaos]

As above, RAC should do a decent job but give them the bits to look out for (lots listed above) just in case and drop them a drink - I'm sure they'll be happy to spend an extra 5 minutes for you.

[jmcg]

cheers, the hunt will commence with more gusto when i get back from tunisia.

all about keeping an eye out in the next few months

[ADAMOD]

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/168155.htm

What u think?

[jmcg]

thats nice adam, probably be long gone by the time im ready, need to turn 25 first :$

[ADAMOD]

is there anything u would change about it? i need to sell it and havn't had much interest and its a beautiful car. I mite put the standard rear lights back into it?

[jmcg]

if it were mine, wheels wise, i'd love a set of contours off the saloon or a set of throwing stars off an e34 m5, the evo tail-lights, im also not overly fussed on angel eyes.

but i'm picking holes and it's your car mate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/ern777/bmws3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/ern777/bmws2.jpg

[Griff]

I've seen a nice M3 GT (the green one with extended fron tlip and rear spoiler) in Ollerton, thats the E36 i'd get.

[Griff]

I've seen a nice M3 GT (the green one with extended front lip and rear spoiler) in Ollerton, thats the E36 i'd get.